Thursday, August 23, 2007

What the community should be...

I've been really stressed out lately every time I look at the message boards.

Every other post is either a flame, a guy freaking out about the VH1 show, or guys worrying about some special girl.

One of the parts of the community that is highly underrated, is the oppurtunity it presents to be a part of a bigger whole. This entire community is built on the idea that YOU are not the only one out there, who has thoughts, feelings and frustrations about meeting women.

The community IMO should strive to do a couple of things.

1. It should provide the most up to date, field tested, and constantly updating information on meeting, attracting, and dating beautiful women. It should also provide resources to mind expanding books, videos and lifestyle information. In other words, it should be the one place where you can learn everything you need to about becoming a naturally attractive man and getting the relationship life of your dreams.

2. it should provide a support group where guys can get help. This includes support, advice, and friendship. We should all be in this to help each other succeed. i feel like with all the in fighting and business etc.. that point is the one that we forget the most often. We're all students here, some of us just happen to be further along the road. We need to realize that as a community as a whole, we need to be cohesive and we need to help each other, not just with game, but with life. A lot of guys want things for free, and they aren't willing to look at where you can help someone else. Be it paying me for a bootcamp, which allows me to go out more and refine my teaching, which helps you to get better information. Or if you need information from me after a program and you can teach me about something like investing. Don't be afraid of offering value. If you are an expert about something non-seduction related, you will refine your knowledge by teaching someone else and you will have a way better chance of learning something from that person.

3. It should be an atmosphere where everyone tries to develop their lives instead of just being PUAs. I would really like it if the community became something cool that we could be proud of and show other people. Guys and girls included.

I know I've done the opposite of most of these things, but I think that if everyone kinda defined what the community SHOULD be, we could start the process of building it.

If you have some more ideas please hit me up with comments.

Try to kee them positive and not anonymous.

S

28 comments:

  1. interesting post - i think one of the things that keeps coming up is 'what will be the next iteration of the community'.

    Earlier the only people who found the community were people who were REALLY looking for it.
    Also there was an element of really needing it/wanting it.

    These days the book and the show has brought in a lot of 'how to get laid quick' attitude people who don't really care about the community.

    Also what Neil and Mystery are doing is basically selling out on the community for personal benefit.

    I think doing workshops is OK. whoring out the community via shows and books is damaging to the community itself.

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  2. I disagree, I think that instead of trying to hide the community, we should build it into something REALLY fucking cool, and rep it as a place where guys actually become cooler, better guys.

    The idea that it's a SECRET internet community is inherently uncool, and I think what Neil and Erik are doing is hepful for EVERY guy in the community as we get to show the new guys rushing into the community that the community is full of cool guys as opposed to a lot of the horror stories out there.

    S

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  3. JamesT1:17 PM

    Way to much drama, I'm afraid the whole community will get attacked by internet marketers, same people that spam you about p***s enlargements. People offering magic pills, will attract the masses. I hope there will still be ground for life changing real stuff. Keep up the good work man!

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  4. Sinn,

    Good post and I think we are already seeing a transformation in what the community should be.

    It looks to me that a lot of the guys are moving towards what I like to call "lifestyle game". Essentially, improving and making each of our lives so f*cking good that there isn't a need to pick-up women, they will simply flock to us because our entire lives are seductive.

    Another thing that would improve the community would be to purge the term "pick up artist". The people in the community know that it is not inherently a bad thing but the term has such a lasting negative connotation that it is difficult to show the good that the community offers. Once people hear that word "pick up artist" they immediately cast judgment without fully understanding our real purpose. So, instead of fighting it all the time lets just get rid of it.

    Also, we need to stop the drama and fighting between the different pick-up companies. I'm not just talking about MM and VA but ALL of them. It's fine that there are a ton of different companies out there but they need to start working together. By working together than everyone benefits.

    Those are my thoughts and I'm with you on the whole improving the seduction community front.

    Peace,

    Savage

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  5. Anonymous1:23 PM

    i have no problem with the community becoming more and more visible through the media. and i never came along with guys who wanted my secret magic opener and started bitching around when i was correcting the body posture of a member of another lair or following a different guru.

    sinn, you are so right with your suggestions. you can't live that pua lifestyle by hiding the roots it came from. and people do hide because they are scared. they are scared of the same things they were from day 1. not being liked by others, not getting validation, not getting laid, bla bla. screw this!

    this community is now discussed by people from the outside with different views and beliefs. and as they are from the outside they won't get the true core of this. so, in order to take it to the next level and not ruin it by stabbing each other's backs, it's necessary to understand this whole thing as a movement. modern male movement or something like that. may someone else find some stupid acronym for this.
    point being, everyone of us lacked of male role models in their lives. we were shocked and traumatized by all those strong females taking over and became silent, scared shitless in front of them. the community as it is today has to be understood as a movement of men taking their natural roles back. it doesn't have to be hostile or aggressive. everything happens in the name of development and experience. the internet can make this thing so dynamic that i in europe benefit from the experience of the u.s. boys and vice versa. it's great! all it takes is to recognize the potential of a place sinn described.

    great wake-up call, sinn!

    paracal

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  6. Double Take1:28 PM

    I think the community, especially the MM forum is just a place I can go for quick answers. Everything of value I have found I have found in a book or reading one of the PUG blogs. The forums I have seen have been more about combating oneitis, or getting a specific HB. I have similar problems here and there, but I want the over all answer, I don't want any quick fixes. The community needs to mature. I think Neil and Erik are doing a really good job of making what I see as a more and more mainstream society truly mainstream. Erik's show is putting the community into a very good light and he isn't giving away our secrets or techniques. Neil's book is a good read I know of women who enjoy reading it. I don't think for one second we should pawn the issues the community has on the people who are on the cutting edge. We, as in you, me and everyone just entering or who has been in the community need to take a second and ask, "Is this all about getting the girls?" I don't think so, and Neil doesn't think so.

    We need to focus on making ourselves better. I love the community, because I'm very attracted to the psychology of it. I love understanding how people's minds work, but that's not all. Look at Neil, he completely changed himself into a much better and quality individual. I want to do the same.

    If anyone is ready to step forward and be the next revolutionary please do. We are in a society that is on the edge of change.

    -DT Out-

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  7. Firstly, the idea of learning seduction and seeing reality as it is (versus what society wants you to believe) is inherently against societal programming.

    Secondly, there is a lot of dedication and committment required.
    Only a small percentage of people bring that.
    If i could choose to be in a group of a 500K or so people who actually bring value to the table versus a group of tens of millions of people who just come to steal value and add noise to the discussion - why would I ever choose the latter.

    Finally, wanting other people to think we're cool guys is needy. Why do we care?

    The key question becomes - who are the people who are actually committed to the improvement/sharing/brotherhood aspects.
    Lastly - the VH1 show makes people think community people are weirdos - not cool people. For that aspect see Juggler's show which shows him as a cool guy. Look at what Mystery and JDog look like - that's totally not cool.

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  8. Quite frankly - the fact that you're running a business that requires expansion of the comunity to prosper gives you a nonaltruistic motive to open up the community and have it not be 'SECRET'.

    atleast you're not being a hypocrite - as opposed to some other gurus.

    A perfect example of this is what Style writes about 'in trying to contribute to the community' he has started stylelife and all he is asking for is 80$ a month to cover hosting costs (we should get some stock in that hosting company).

    Call a spade a spade and say 'we add value and we want money' and we run a business and we need customers.

    It's ironic to have people sell out on the community for personal profit and then try to sugarcoat what they are doing and want to be hailed as 'adding to the community' and 'improving it'.

    For the people who found the community through the book - yes, they benefited. However for the people before the book and for new people who are truly committed - No.
    In a very Ayn Rand sense this is trying to tell the exceptional people that you should share the frutis of your labor with the mediocre.

    If you want to sell products and workshops - that's great. However for people who do not want the community to be bigger and don't want to give away what they've learnt without getting value back - it makes zero sense.

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  9. There is nothing wrong with learning this stuff...

    Abhi you're still acting like this is some great secret that NO ONE knows.

    A lot of this is common sense stuff and the only things that can possibly be exposed are routines.

    The structure of courtship is NEVER going to change. Being cooler than the girl you approached is NEVER going to change.

    The secrets aren't all that big, it's the discipline to make changes and commit to new behavior patterns that determines success. Not some kinda secret knowledge.

    S

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  10. Publicizing the community is a great thing... more people, more ideas, more competition, and only the strongest and best will survive. The secret society before was filled with misfits, which society rightly should have and will continue to weed out of the gene pool.

    Sure, most if not all are in this for money and/or fame. Just like everything else in life. The community will become mainstream; for those who claimed to have seen the light, he should know that girls want to be picked up, girls want the romance, girls want the chase, that's how we breed and perpetuate as a species.

    It's about time we weed out those lamers who think they are cool because they are in the know, the secret society, the bullshit fight club, and whatever else. Go out and compete... Be a man!

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  11. I wrote a whole essay on how I felt about this topic, but I'll just trim it to these thoughts:

    - The VA blog has a link to Sinn's, Tyler's, Juggler's, and just about every other respected PUA's blog. That says/means a lot.
    - Charisma Arts was on "Welcome to the Parker." Wayne and Johnny were there for a bootcamp and helped explain the basics. I think they did a great job and really shined some positive light on the community.
    - In spite of the negative exposure from the book, I really like what has been coming out of the RSD camp lately. Good for them.
    - My non-community friends think VH1's "The pick up artist" is a joke. To each their own.
    - And as with everything, the KBJ's will come and go, but the strong will survive, and the cream will rise to the top.

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  12. NastyMick3:19 PM

    The money has ruined this community. After the release of 'The Game' the community is just full of losers who are looking for a quick fix and don't realise they have to change their whole outlook on things if they want to be succesful at this.

    The majority of the cool guys who had something to offer back in the game and were good with women are gone. Fact of the matter is, most of the guys on the boards are just creepy losers...

    Ideally this whole community would be just about becoming an all round cooler person... making more money, getting in better shape, dressing better, having varied and interesting tastes, and opinions and ideas that are your own etc. All of these things combined make you someone who will get girls.

    Because the truth is, success with women isn't hard, unless you make it hard for yourself, by being a socially backward creep.

    -NM

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  13. nastymick,

    you are very right, in fact, from what little experience I have... of guys who are still in the community after all these years, they are socially awkward creeps who prey on newbies.

    i guess the Peter Principle still holds true here, those who don't progress, are stuck here because this is all they can be; of course, these are the same guys who want to keep this a secret... because this is all they have going in life.

    those got better, they left or become coaches, why immerse oneself with those who are not cool unless there is an (financial) incentive.

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  14. Despite what instructors preach about an abundance mentality, many members of the community fear exposure.

    There's nothing wrong with exposure. The term PUA has such a negative stigma with the 'outside world' and it's because of the scarcity mentaily of the community (despite claiming to believe otherwise).

    Guys hide this as if it's something we should be ashamed about if found out.

    Why not be more like martial arts? Everybody knows it exists, knows a couple moves, etc. But how many people really have the dedication to be masters or even good for that matter?

    The book is cool. Exposure on TV is cool.

    Why do we covet so much becoming a PUA, as if the term carried an inherent value?

    The value we gain is what we've learned and transformed into along the way. What ever happened to just becoming good with women and having an interesting, meaningful life?

    You won't be seen peacocking in the coffin, your tombstone won't say "PUA", and all the girls you banged will not come to your funeral.

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  15. Hanzo3:38 PM

    I am with Sinn on this topic. I want to share my experiences to offer help to others and to get help from those with more skill than I possess. I am getting tired of the flaming and paranoia. The community should help us be better, cooler men.

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  16. I see what is happening to the PUA community as something that happens to anything as it matures and the mainstream gaines awareness of it.

    Whether it be a naturnal business cycle, fads/trends, etc. they all have a natural life cycle.

    Look at skateboarding or BMX or the internet newsgroups as an example of how awareness of the masses can ruin a good thing for the people who were pioneers.

    As someone pointed out, once the masses see something of value they can get/exploit without giving anything back, they will. Look at how the internet has evolved. I liked it better when it was shell accounts and newsgroups. You had relatively fair exchange of value and the community drove out anyone that didn't contribute or acted without integrety.

    This is just natural evolution of a business market and human community relations.

    The masses generally have nothing real to offer and are vultures who feed on the few that create something of value. That is the reality of the human race. Look at a typical large corporation. Less than 10% of the people do anything of real value to the company and th e rest feed on their work.

    Now that the PUA community is getting to the mainstream you will have the masses coming to feed on those who have built it. And they will bitch and moan about not getting enough.

    Go look on any mature car enthusiest web community. It always turns into where the vultures end up chasing out anyone with any real value and it turns into mental masturbation for the incompetent vultures of life.

    What has happened in the car enthusiest community was the creation of private email lists or webboards where you could only get access by referral and tightly moderated and stayed underground. That was the only way to preserve the free exchange of good ideas where everyone contributes, rather than just feeding.

    There is no way to "save" the community if the masses are allowed in. They will never get it and will want quick fixes and distractions and blame the community for their failures. This is how the masses live their entire lives and never accomplish anything worthwhile and die poor. Why should we let them in?

    In the end, society will never accept what we do. There are many reasons, but the main one is that if a significant number of men made the life changing realizations and applied them, there would be a huge social change in the this country and it threatens too many people and organizations in power today.

    It is not by accident that the "romantic ideal" is indoctornated in us and there is huge social pressure against men improving their social skills with women. The people in power do not want most men to have sexual choices. They want most men to accept a woman they do not desire as a wife due to the scarcity principle and stay docile as they accept their fate of living a life of failure. This makes most of society docile and controllable and that is what people in power want. go look at the history of the human race and you will see that it was true then and now.

    ReplyDelete
  17. I see what is happening to the PUA community as something that happens to anything as it matures and the mainstream gaines awareness of it.

    Whether it be a naturnal business cycle, fads/trends, etc. they all have a natural life cycle.

    Look at skateboarding or BMX or the internet newsgroups as an example of how awareness of the masses can ruin a good thing for the people who were pioneers.

    As someone pointed out, once the masses see something of value they can get/exploit without giving anything back, they will. Look at how the internet has evolved. I liked it better when it was shell accounts and newsgroups. You had relatively fair exchange of value and the community drove out anyone that didn't contribute or acted without integrety.

    This is just natural evolution of a business market and human community relations.

    The masses generally have nothing real to offer and are vultures who feed on the few that create something of value. That is the reality of the human race. Look at a typical large corporation. Less than 10% of the people do anything of real value to the company and th e rest feed on their work.

    Now that the PUA community is getting to the mainstream you will have the masses coming to feed on those who have built it. And they will bitch and moan about not getting enough.

    Go look on any mature car enthusiest web community. It always turns into where the vultures end up chasing out anyone with any real value and it turns into mental masturbation for the incompetent vultures of life.

    What has happened in the car enthusiest community was the creation of private email lists or webboards where you could only get access by referral and tightly moderated and stayed underground. That was the only way to preserve the free exchange of good ideas where everyone contributes, rather than just feeding.

    There is no way to "save" the community if the masses are allowed in. They will never get it and will want quick fixes and distractions and blame the community for their failures. This is how the masses live their entire lives and never accomplish anything worthwhile and die poor. Why should we let them in?

    In the end, society will never accept what we do. There are many reasons, but the main one is that if a significant number of men made the life changing realizations and applied them, there would be a huge social change in the this country and it threatens too many people and organizations in power today.

    It is not by accident that the "romantic ideal" is indoctornated in us and there is huge social pressure against men improving their social skills with women. The people in power do not want most men to have sexual choices. They want most men to accept a woman they do not desire as a wife due to the scarcity principle and stay docile as they accept their fate of living a life of failure. This makes most of society docile and controllable and that is what people in power want. go look at the history of the human race and you will see that it was true then and now.

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  18. Anonymous5:58 PM

    Cool post, Sinn.

    I've had enough with chumps who attack Neil Strauss, Mystery, etc. for "selling out" the community for trying to earn a living from their value provided. Guys, if you can't think of any dialogue better for yourself than something a short bald rock critic ad-libbed at Skybar five years ago, you don't deserve to get laid.

    "What's your sign" used to be a great line, too...but the species didn't die out once it became a cliche.

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  19. agree with bill kim. In particular -

    "In the end, society will never accept what we do. There are many reasons, but the main one is that if a significant number of men made the life changing realizations and applied them, there would be a huge social change in the this country and it threatens too many people and organizations in power today.

    It is not by accident that the "romantic ideal" is indoctornated in us and there is huge social pressure against men improving their social skills with women. The people in power do not want most men to have sexual choices. They want most men to accept a woman they do not desire as a wife due to the scarcity principle and stay docile as they accept their fate of living a life of failure. This makes most of society docile and controllable and that is what people in power want. go look at the history of the human race and you will see that it was true then and now. "

    Also - in case it isn't clear to you already - the education system in the us in particular is set up just so that society can be stratified and you can be dictated your position in the pyramid.

    Basically the PU movement is closer to the 'Fight Club' movie than you realize.
    For those of the community who are all focused on pussy and don't realize how politics and religion is controlling us, yes the secret being out is a GREAT thing.

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  20. I'm Brazilian and tyhings here are a little bit diferent.

    We don't have The game here and I guess only few people knows about the VH1 show.

    So yeah... I won't be "caught" using canned material or something for a while, but even so I don't really like the ideia of expanding it.

    You know, with just a couple of magazines articles about the game, in our brazilian's forums we had a invasion of people trying to get a easy laid, what I see on the foruns nowadays are lame...

    I agree with somebody who said that in the old days, the only people who found the community were only the ones who really wanted it.

    But the ideia of having a forum of self improvment and all of interestings things are really cool... Like Tynan's. Who used to live on P.hollywood and on his blog he has like this super cool forum with not only pickup stuff but also super cool stuff.

    anyway... I'll just stop here, I'm terrible at expressing myself in english!

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  21. Sinn,

    I agree wholeheartedly. I'm one of those people who joined the game after the book came out, and at first was just after pussy. What I've found out about this community is it's improved me as a PERSON. For instance it's motivated me to lose 65 pounds. So the community is doing what you suggest. But maybe we should expand it.

    Keep it up though.

    Nick

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  22. Danjer11:51 PM

    There needs to be a long term look at the community aswell.

    In 10 years will you still be teaching bootcamps Sinn? I don't think so.

    There are those people who are in the community to 'fix' short term problems. And there are those who are interested in the 'frame' of the community. We all know who ever controls the frame is more alpha.

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  23. I'm all for the community becoming more popular. Why should it be secret when it could help out so many people. Why are you guys so focused on the negative consequences. Think about the positives. A guy who never fucked a girl will learn how to fuck many and may be eventually find a girl who he connects with. By keeping the community underground, you're preventing him from doing that.

    What if it was you? What if you didn't find the community because people didn't make it popular?

    That fact of the matter is, people who really want to be successful, will approach, learn and get better. Others will just read and people watch.

    To people who bitch about routines given away: You don't need a single routine to pick up a woman. Being interesting doesn't mean you have to do the best friend test or tell her how many people shitted on her strawberry field. The routine will not get you the girl. Your confidence and the way you handle things will. Plus if routines are so important, why not make your own.

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  24. Anonymous1:08 PM

    i whole heartedly agree with you. no truer words have been said in the wake of this community's recent troubles. what we need is to have a brotherhood, again. we're not alone. we should stand together in this. not fight like TD and Jeffries did. we should unite to help eachother. to re-establish the lost art of being "a man".

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  25. Anonymous12:17 AM

    Vh1 was the first I've heard of this whole thing and I really like reading techniques and explanation of womens physcology etc. But I've yet to find an ultimate single source of information.

    The combination of a wiki, forum and main blog would make for a great one stop shop of information if you could get people to collaborate.

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  26. There are like 26 posts on this thing and I'm not reading them all but I will respond to this...

    "I disagree, I think that instead of trying to hide the community, we should build it into something REALLY fucking cool, and rep it as a place where guys actually become cooler, better guys.

    The idea that it's a SECRET internet community is inherently uncool, and I think what Neil and Erik are doing is hepful for EVERY guy in the community as we get to show the new guys rushing into the community that the community is full of cool guys as opposed to a lot of the horror stories out there."

    --I could not agree more. If you are going to out the community, frame it in a way that helps us as men become inherently cooler/self improving/confident alpha males... rather than a generation pale dorky D&D playing KJ's.

    I consider the community to still be in its infancy... on the cusp of something really amazing... we should frame it as such while we have the chance.

    I also agree with your idea of what the community should be Sinn. In the current world of competitive sales/marketing; different schools/styles; who's the best out there etc... people forget what the community should be.

    That's why I hate debating about Dick Crack the way some members do.

    The community should be a place of self improvement and friendship. Outside of the military - I have never witnessed so much commraderee in a civilian organization. You were all called to the community for the same reasons - just as soldiers and Marines are. The demographics vary but the goals and aspirations are the same.

    Speaking of self improvement... you wrote a thread a year ago about developing a style product. I know there are lots of products in the make and also a law suit or two going on out there... but were you ever planning on releasing such a product?

    Take care

    -Priest-

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  27. Damn good post, Sinn. One other thing I'd like to say is that it is OK for someone to make money teaching/selling their hard work. People can decide for themselves if they wish to spend money on learning or not. People who pay for the materials should provide a review to the community as to the worthiness, but not make assumptions without knowledge.

    There are some very JADED people in the community (guys who have sour grapes because they are failing to progress) who make the assumption that anyone who teaches and gets paid for their hard work is somehow ripping people off. It costs money and time for someone to teach and write.

    The bottom line is we need to have more honor and respect that this is a community AND an industry that wouldn't exist without some form of a profit motive.

    Peace

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