Monday, May 04, 2009

Soapbox Issue : Women Allowing Themselves To Be Treated Like Objects

So one of the things I’ve noticed as I’ve delved more into the world of Miami, is the huge proliferation of the sugar daddy lifestyle.

I understand the idea of cultural differences and that in some cultures (Especially those where women cannot work) it is understandable to specifically date a guy for his money.

However, I really think it’s unhealthy for women as a whole that a whole generation of women in cities like LA, NY, Miami, and elsewhere are ok with having sex and or companionship for money arrangements.

I was speaking to one of my female friends the other day. We’ll call her Kelly. This girl is 23, works at one of the hottest clubs in LA as a cocktail waitress, and occasionally does the odd modeling job. She has a boyfriend, and a sugar daddy she’s also known to occasionally get drunk and have sex with me.

Kelly was one of the first girls I ever met who had a sugar daddy. She met some guy at the club she works out who was getting bottle service, he got her number, she complained about bills and he offered to take care of them.

That was 3 years ago.

Kelly says she sleeps with this guy we’ll call Dave once a month, returns all his calls and texts and eats dinner with him twice a week. He pays for her apartment (In a luxery building near Beverly Hills) her car ( a BMW) and gives her cash whenever they hang out.

Kelly consistently jokes that she’s getting a good deal, but we got into an argument this weekend about what this arrangement makes her. I don’t like the term whore when it comes to girls, as I think it’s extremely derogatory. But I made the point that it was a step in the road on the way to sex traded directly for money. But that wasn’t my problem with the arrangement.

My problem came from the fact that I think Kelly has turned herself into an object for Dave. He doesn’t know that she paints really dramatic still lives, or that she’s terrified of midgets. He doesn’t know her at all. She doesn’t actually share herself, because he’s not interested in her. And she’s not interested in him, but there’s a mutually beneficial relationship for them where he gets a hot girl in his life and she can live in a nice place and have a nice car…

The reason we started talking about this issue yesterday was because her 17 year old sister is visited her this last weekend. They’re from a middle class family in Chicago. Her sister kept asking her how she could only work 3-4 days a week, lay out all day everyday, and still have money for clothes, clubbing etc… Kelly told her sister about the Dave situation, and her sister seemed into the idea. And this distresses me greatly.

I really like Kelly as a person and she could take care of herself if she wanted to cut down on going out, clothes shopping and eating out all the time. But she’d rather have this arrangement.

No one loves women more than I do and it makes me sad to watch really cool, smart, together girls allow themselves to get involved in these types of arrangements. And it terrifies me that Kelly thinks it’s a good idea to tell her sister about this..

Allright I’m just ranting now so I’ll wrap up…



  1. Anonymous7:38 AM

    I think the real issue is your views towards women having sex.

    So she wants to sport f*&$k some gezzer for a great lifestyle? So what? In framing we talk about being non judgemental, and that sex is no big deal? Riiiiight? So lets walk our talk? Yes here in the US sex is such an issue. Go to South America or Asia where they have the most promiscuous women, where culturally they have sex instead of watching day time tv and its just a sport fuck. . .

    I say shag and let shag:)

  2. Anonymous8:18 AM

    I totally agree with you Sinn. This using-each-other-for-sex attitude is derogatory to women ultimately.

  3. Anonymous9:10 AM

    i agree with the issues you have. most young women have been raised by hollywood and mtv, so they go nuts if they can't afford the next limited gucci purse. one could hand them eckhart tolle books and make them de-identify with this dysfunctional society, but on the other hand..i'm on the way towards getting rich as well. so fuck that. i want them for sex and nothing else. the money sugar daddies pay these days is more than a sexual encounter fee. it's actually paying for not having to cuddle afterwards, for not having to meet the parents and other bullshit. so i can understand where these guys are coming from.

    as a pua though i ask myself how to turn girls around that are all about the money. especially in LA nightlife. telling i'm a student usually kills my game, because it oftentimes equals being broke. it'd be great to hear your thoughts on that....

  4. Anonymous9:29 AM

    It does sound like jealousy on your part bro. Not of the dude with the money, you're jealous of the girl for being able to have such a chill lifestyle by having sex with a guy once a week. You're saying she's objectifying herself, but if she's making that decision from a place of security, it's not derogatory.

    That's sort of what this community is about: leveling the playing field. Having that choice. You can spout to me that if you had a woman who would give you that arrangement who was even moderately attractive, you would turn it down, but I wouldn't buy it. Sex just isn't that big a deal to you, that's why you give it up to hundreds of women. There's no way that you turn that arrangement down.

  5. Anonymous9:48 AM

    It is derogatory but true from what I have seen. She is trading sex for money and things but if you think about it we all prostitute ourselves in one way or another. However the exchange is really not a bad one - its just old fashion bartering. They both are getting what they want and if they are both content for the benefits or value gained then they both win.

  6. Sinn I think that your absolutely right in what your saying women shouldn't be treated as objects for money but this is also that guys fault what kinda pussy does that? But at the same time lets not be judgemental. Don't condemn her for living a lifestyle she wants to live. If her sister tries to do the same thing that is their deal. I would just be her friend but not place any judgement on her

  7. I think it's just the nature of the beast of power. Girls by and large have a much greater share of the sexual power market, whereas men, lacking that, turn to production. And power corrupts. How about how this guy is just letting Kelly use him for his money? Who is really being objectified? I really think it's impossible to have a genuine relationship where a differential of power exists to this extent.

  8. Sound like the female version of yourself, dawg...

    That's some funny stuff.

  9. Anonymous1:05 PM

    Transactional relationship. It's prostitution.

    I have never met an emotionally healthy hooker or ex-hooker yet.

    Down the track it will fuck with her head, and effect her life in many negative ways.

    As a default of being viewed as a commodity. They all end up hating men, or develop LSE and feel shame in later years.

    But we all fuck up... and most of the time recover our self-esteem.

    Good luck to her.

  10. Anonymous1:43 PM

    A lot of the girls you've been with do this. You just didn't know it.

  11. Anonymous2:13 PM

    Sinn this was really good. Sometime I disagree with you but I think you hit this on the head. I've read for a while and never commented but for this you deserve it. Good post.

    Kelly need to respect herself because she really is heading down a bad road and an even worse mindset.

  12. Anonymous2:47 PM

    Well I don't mean to sound judgemental and all, but whatever she is doing is simply another way of prostitution.

  13. AdamB3:44 PM

    The question to ask is:
    Should a line be drawn somehwere? I mean, if this sort of behavior is okay then where can you draw the line between this and full prostitution, and should you draw a line for full prostitution anyway? Some would say pornography is prostitution and some say its not. How is what this girl is doing any different than fucking in front of a camera? IMO, it's all fair game. My only problem is telling her sister. She needs to make sure her sister understands both sides of the situation, especially if her sister looks up to her.

  14. My exgf would tell me how one day she wanted a rich husband/man to take care of everything.

    Around 3/4 of a year later, she found that rich older guy that would take care of things.

    Did it last?

    Lets just say, money cant buy you love.

  15. I completely disagree honestly. Me personally, and it may sound terrible, but I'm a capitalist. Pure 100% capitalist and I say first and foremost...let freedom ring. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness as long as it doesn't hinder anyone else's happiness. The day she gets sick of it she'll quit. As long as he isn't harming/forcing her and they have a complete agreement with what's going on it's not a problem.
    Right now I'm living in Germany where prostitution is legal. I know quite a few mentally stable prostitutes with degrees and family lives that are actually cool as hell. (I don't fuck them but that's my personal and private privilege. Not a big fan of getting sex without the excitement of seduction)
    That goes into the difference between a whore/slut and a woman who simply enjoys sex. A whore/slut feels as if she must do it. Either forced by a person or by living conditions. Hence the negative connotation with it in the US. If you're a prostitute in the states most likely you're forced into it. A woman who simply enjoys sex does it because she wants to. Even in the whorehouses here they can turn down a potential client if they want to.
    So in short I will say that's her personal opinion, as long as it's her decision and he's not forcing her into it there's nothing wrong with it at all.
    (P.S. That's part of why the rest of the world hates Americans...way too concerned with things that aren't our problems)

  16. Anonymous8:30 PM

    Why hate on a girl if she doesn't care that she's fucking some guy who doesn't really care to get to know her. Just because that's not your way of getting in her pants doesn't make it any less effective. And don't act like you get to know every single girl you ever fuck like they were your soul mate. Give me a break.

    Fuck it. Use what you have. If you have game, use it, get pussy. If you have model good looks, use it, get pussy. If you are rich, use it.. you get the idea. There will always be girls out there willing to fuck a guy for whatever reason. Deal with it and don't ever fall in love with one of them.

    I think it's easy to be critical of a girl from our standpoint because we're used to our own gender role of being a provider or at least providing for ourselves. I think that there are always going to be a number of women out there who feel that finding a provider is priority #1 and everything else is secondary.

    Slightly off subject, I think it's natures way of making sure there are women to breed with every type of guy who has at least one alpha trait. If women weren't willing to breed with guys who are financially successful then the world would quickly fall short of good business people. The world needs merchants,warriors,thinkers and leaders so there will be different women who are drawn to these different types.

  17. Anonymous12:00 AM

    You're not understanding the true psychology and value behind this because you're from a poor, uneducated ("personal trainer" your only other job beside pick-up), and---most ironically---highly judgmental background. (You talk about showing off you're "non-judgmental" as one of the most important sexual frames, then you bust on Matador for walking around naked around you? If you're not gay, and you're nonjudgmental, and you like to test the limits of your comfort, wouldn't that be a *good* thing? And you bust on Matador for wearing wigs---when we all know you've read The Game, and been pissed that you never made it into it at all, and Style writes beautifully about how he used wigs to his crazy fun creative advantage in clubs.

  18. Anonymous3:37 AM

    Thanks for sharing. It seems to me to be a wierd form of survival value. He protects her with money. After all money is just a different form of value, but its real, its tangible, and obvious straight away. I think its probably triggering a switch at some level, and she is attracted to him. Otherwise if she wasn't she could still get the money and not sleep with him. Her values may deem it acceptable behaviour, although the guy is a (1/2) chump.

  19. Anonymous5:08 AM

    Who was the guy with "beeing not judgemental" .... ???

  20. I think Kelly is just educating her sister on the fundamentals of being a successful woman in today’s western society. You have to face the fact that it is a women’s world out there. The western male, especially in the U.S. has allowed himself to become so pussified that you cannot blame women for taking advantage of the situation.

    In the book Sperm Wars, the point was illustrated that the woman is biologically driven when given the opportunity, to trade up to put herself in the most optimal situation, casting her current partner aside like an old pair of shoes for a better one. Men will do the same thing given the opportunity.

    We are constantly led to believe that relationships are fundamentally love based, but the majority of them are not. They are business relationships. Look at marriage. You get a license and enter into a legally binding contract. Don’t believe me? Ask anyone who has gotten a divorce! From that perspective Kelly is simply playing out her options to provide her skills / talents (In this case looks) to the highest bidder, no differently than a professional sports player does. The problem for Kelly lies in the fact that she has relatively few years in which to exploit her looks. Probably about five at the most. At that point she will be discarded for a newer model. If she realizes this in time, she will be proactively looking for a wealthy chump that she can marry before she gets too many miles on the odometer, so that she can maintain her lifestyle. Sure, she will try to convince herself that she loves the guy, but she knows in the back of her mind that is not the case. And just for insurance, she will have a couple of kids. Then she will be financially set for the next eighteen years at a minimum. But if she marries a guy that’s really rich, no kids needed. Just hang a couple of years and then bail. Her ticket will still be punched. Ask Paul McCartney.

    So, that being said, is what Kelly doing fundamentally wrong? I don’t think so. Is forming some kind of judgment about it warranted? Probably not. I will use one more example here to illustrate my point. Strip clubs. We are constantly told by mainstream society that strip clubs are bad and they exploit women. But if you really look at it, they don’t do that at all. They exploit men. Women aren’t going in there spending any of their money and getting nothing tangible in return. So probably everyone reading this has partaken in a strip club and therefore participated in what Kelly and Dave are doing at some level. The majority of men, if the tables were turned, would do what Kelly is doing in a heart beat.
    So what we really have here is that Kelly is just doing what she is biologically programmed to do (be taken care of and be provided for by men). The majority of women would do this if given the opportunity. The important thing for us as men is to accept it and not be exploited or caught up in it. The bottom line here is “Don’t hate the player - Hate the game!”

  21. Sinn, I think you should exclusively date this girl AND her 17 year old sister in order to save them from this despotic, tyrannical Sugar Daddy


  22. Gaelic11:54 AM

    Your evolutionnary comments make me laugh. Well, her biology command her to do that. And ? Is she a stupid dog or a women ?
    My biology of man makes me wanting to kill my dad and become the leaderchief of the horde. Well, and ? Should I kill everybody just because i'm primarily programmed to ?

    Evolutionnary is explanation, not justification. We're not simple animals, and we're not objects. We're conscious animals and we make choices. Some are good... and some bad.

  23. Anonymous11:33 PM

    Yes if you're a guy who'se very wealthy and/or come from a very wealthy family,it'll always be much easier meeting,finding and attracting very hot women,so Sinn hits on some interesting and very relevant points. While it'd be a lot harder being a sugar daddy in the current economic climate,
    there's desperate rich guys definitely around and I fully concur it's a basically form of quasi prostitution on a lady's part. It's part and parcel of the very materialistic,instant gratification culture we live in.

    There's even sugar daddy type dating sites like - no I'm not trying to plug the site. I thought of joining when they offered free memberhsip for a month,so I could go on it and hurl abuse at the women in my city who are registered on there,but I opted not to.

  24. VJ7PUA2:05 AM

    I agree with most of the people on this thread - who the hell cares what she does with her body?

    Personally, I am a libertarian and thus think prostitution should be legalized. What could be more yours than your body? If you want to sell it, and someone else wants to buy it, then by all means you should have the right to go ahead with the transaction.

    Sinn I respect you and your game a lot, but I would like to challenge you here because you never really give a reason why it's such a bad thing for this girl to "objectify" herself.

    She's an adult, she's happy with the situation, and so is the guy. Everyone's happy here but you. Why ruin everyone else's fun?

  25. Anonymous2:23 AM

    I'm pretty sure Sinn just made this post to get this girl into a LTR with him or something - LOL.

  26. NastyMick9:19 AM

    This says more about you, than it does about her at the end of the day.

    Don't you think it's completely hypocritical, going around sleeping with ridiculous amounts of girls and taking money from GUYS to preach to them how to get laid, so you can live a certain lifestyle but if she fucks a guy just so she can have a certain lifestyle for herself it's wrong?

    It might just be me, but I think you might be having some issues and reservations about the way you live your own life and the way you look at sex.

  27. Anonymous3:29 AM

    The point of his post was to illustrate the fucking illogical and ultimately harmful behavior of some women.

    They say they want to be treated with respect, not to be called sluts/whores, be equal to men, not seen as OBJECTS but as human beings.

    Yet most of them act like whores. They use there body/sexuality for attention and temporarily boosting there self-esteem then complain when there called sluts.

    There behavior perpetuates the very insults and stereotypes they despise.

  28. Anonymous1:28 AM

    Simple she's a One client whore, If she doesn't like that tag she'd better have a hard look at herself.

  29. I see that out here in Miami all the time. I'm listening to your day game thing, and you're not giving your real self to the girl either by BSing so much when you're talking to the chick.

    It sucks for her because she will get in and break up out of these type of relationships often because they'll be addictive to her to get easy money.

    Another thing is (maybe it's a scarcity mentality) that I don't want to pay for a chick, and those type of chicks will want that type of guy. I just hope there aren't too many hot chicks like that. But there are, esp if you live down here because the girls get used to the guys kissing their ass to be in their life.

  30. I had a sugar daddy. We actually were in a full-on relationship, so it's not like it was a "trade." I actually liked him. The problem was that he was compensating for his own insecurities by lavishly spending money. At first it was really fun. We went on amazing trips, drank extravagant wine, and he bought me nice gifts. But he would be so loud and over the top about it sometimes. As time went on though, it felt embarrassing and made my friends cringe and ultimately was a factor that led to the demise of the relationship. Thing is, the guy had plenty going for him, but by acting so ostentatious, it made it seem like he didn't really feel like he deserved me.

    I love guys being generous and chivalrous. I love guys who are so abundant that they don't have to worry about money. But whenever the focus is on trying to "look cool" using anything external, it ends up feeling kinda cheap and empty at the end of the day.