Tuesday, February 17, 2009

Leave Them Better Than You Found Them?

I've seen this quote a ton of places around the community from those that it made some sense when they said it(Toecutter, Steven Nash etc), to Ross Jeffries.

But I was talking to Cameron the other day and I realized that most guys(myself included) don't leave the women they pick up better than they found them. Whether it's for lack of trying or caring, is another debate in and of itself...

The question I want to raise here is "How, do you leave a woman better than you found her?"

By what measure is she better?

Is she better because you pushed her to pursue a study, passion or purpose? I've seen Future do that, and it lends to reason that if done successfully and without other complications in the relationship(assuming an amicable breakup, etc..) that would leave a woman better off.

Allegedly, Hypnotica and Steve Piccus teach women some sort of undefined(to me) way of living at a higher plane, frequency, energy, (insert some words that Entropy and Erika would understand far better than I here)... Again assuming no bad endings etc... That could work too.

But how else?

Is it enough to give a woman a night she never forgets to leave her better off? If so then I've done that countless times...

So I guess the REAL question is...

What does it take to leave a woman better off than you found her?

An orgasm?

An erotic awakening?

A million dollars in settlement money?

A heartbreaking emotional experience she turns into art?

Where is the line and does it matter if she wouldn't agree with your assessment?



  1. I think it is enough to give a woman a night she never forgets to leave her better than you found her.

    And like we are always saying in the community: Everyone is responsible for their own happiness. If you give her an incredible night and afterwards she "backwards rationalizes" it and says, you were a dick and just used her, it's her own fault (unless you lied to get in her pants, then you are indeed a dick). But if she thanks you for the incredible fuck and always appreciates the experience, then it's cool. You don't have much influence, which of those possibilities she chooses, but her choice determines whether or not you leave her better than you found her. You should do your best, so that she can choose the ladder, but if she doesn't it's not your fault.

  2. Anonymous1:19 PM

    If it seems difficult to understand "leaving her better that you found her" because you don't know by which measure ...

    Maybe it's easier to not leave her worse off. For example, by not unnecessarily being a dick, not making it seem like she's being used (both mentioned above) , making sure the interaction occurs because it's a woman and man enjoying each others' company and not the product of manipulation, etc.

    Starting there may be a good way to go. If, on top of that, you can leave her with a new appreciation of qualities which make her special or something else which makes her happy, that's even better.

  3. Anonymous2:33 PM

    I first heard this in The Game used by everyone's favorite (sarcasm heavy) Neil Strauss... Aside from the source, I would say that it's a good rule to live by, but may be more applicable (as I understood it) in younger/less experienced women... My interpretation was that since many women grow up with very poor ideas of what to expect in the men they date, if a guy can pick a woman up, have some kind of honest relationship with her, and model good male-female interaction behavior (thereby raising her standards of what she has a reasonable right to expect), and leave reasonably amicably, then he has left her "better" than he found her. He's given her a good relationship she can look back on without feeling used.

    As difficult as it is to define, it's probably also more of a case of what NOT to do rather than what to do... Don't leave her worse than you found her by lying, abusing her trust, putting her down (not talking about negs here), taking advantage, etc. making her worse off in the next interaction she faces.

  4. Anonymous3:56 PM

    Does it matter if she wouldn't agree with your assessment?

    Nope. What do chicks know?

  5. Anonymous3:57 PM

    Really, I think its giving her memories of places she has been that she will never forget because she was there with you, and the emotions that were given in that day. Just really making a girl's day. Lighting her up, making her think "that just made my day" every time you see them.

    Girls are so insecure and unsure of them selves sometimes they just need certainty.

    Here's an interesting quote too;
    "To affect the quality of day, that is the highest of arts."
    - Thoreau

  6. Look on TV. The general view of Sex, Sexuality and One Night Stands is unhealthy and dark. That's how you make her better. By showing her that it can be fun, sexy and intimate, EVEN THOUGH you just met her several hours ago.

    There is TONS of stuff in here, insecurities that she may have about her body, worries about what people think, etc. Your job as the PUA is to navigate all that shit, and frame the interaction in such a way that she's thrilled to have spent time with you. She leaves with a more healthy view of her own sexuality. This may include discussions about her private bisexual fantasies or revealing kinky fantasies from her youth, etc. Sexual freedom, etc and the confidence to talk about it is a real power gift.

    When you're a 50yr old guy (RJ) hypnotizing girls into sleeping with you, you might not get that level of openness, but it should be the goal.

    After all, Sex is boring as hell. But it could be the context for opening up these discussions and bringing out these secret thoughts and feelings.

  7. By leaving $50 on the nightstand

  8. Anonymous5:20 PM

    (same commentator as above)

    Oh yeah, lol... As a woman, just giving her a "night she'll never forget" is not enough to leave her better than you found her. You leave her the same as when you found her + plus 1 nice sexual memory. That's all. Better than leaving her as you found her + one lousy sexual memory, but not exactly improving her life (if that's what you're going for). Taking it back to SATC, were any of those women really "better" for just having a great sexual encounter?

  9. Anonymous12:46 AM

    Leaving a woman better than you found her means giving her value she wouldn't have normally. I use this definition because it lends itself to a true fact of self esteem. Girls don't date and hook up with guys often because they are bitchy and like to act out by nature, so the very fact that you escalated with her was leaving her with something.

    Stop thinking so much Sinn, this is just a saying.

  10. I think that the only one who can decide whether you've left her better than you found her is she.
    however, you should try to make sure that when she looks back at the time you've spent together she should be happy about it.

  11. Hard to say what is "leaving them better ha you found them".

    See, you may cause movement in her life, teaching her a new lifestyle, vining in a higher frequency, looking at the bright side of life...

    And when you leave her, she may remember what you taught, may be depressed for "losing" you, or angry and turn the "love" into hate.

    In the end, you provide the stage, but the drama is all hers.

  12. I remember Bob Proctor saying that you should never try and change someone. If they have a path you shouldn't try and change it. I don't think you should try and change someone even if you think it's for the better they should choose their path and you should be ok with that. It's the ultimate respect.

  13. Anonymous3:27 PM

    by not going close to her before shaving ur unibrows

  14. In order to move forward with the understanding of the female psyche continually moving towards making them a better person should be insulting to any woman whom this statement is applied towards. There are several reasons for this.

    Firstly I wholeheartedly believe that any interactions of any sort should be a truly positive experience for everyone involved otherwise someone is just choosing to be an asshole for the sake of self-gratification. In which case I'm sure that you would not really care about making the other person better because you were in the experience chiefly for yourself and so any repercussion is second to the effect you are able to receive.

    Secondly, In order to make a person better implies that their is a direction that is better and that you, the PUA, are aware of what that is for the other person. Now I believe the skills you profess have merit and are very useful in improving many a man's life, however to say that the knowledge of this specific area of life somehow makes you confident enough to assume that you have the right to pick this direction for a person who you have not known for any sufficient period of time, is a bit presumptuous.

    Now I think that your questioning is absolutely fair because it's rather tempting to think that this may be correct, but I ask Are you so sure in your universal knowledge of life that you can lead others towards what is "best" for them? And if you can, are you certain that every time you go out to socialize that it is your responsibility to communicate that to those you decide to interact with?

    Just a few thoughts...

  15. Anonymous7:55 PM

    Wow! What a revealing and timely look at what motivates two people to connect with one another. A woman's perspective, if that's okay?

    1. what are you not being honest about in yourself about how you truly view women if you aren't absolutely devoted to leaving someone you are intimate with in a better and happier place than when you met them? What haven't you dealt with, including rejection on some level, that you would want to leave behind (and in the case of women and sex, leave deposited in her body that she ends up having to deal with)?

    2. Leaving each other in a better place is the best and with some guys, yes! It's been just as difficult... no matter what my intentions have been... people are complex and come with assorted deep wounds that, if we who are of like mind on this one, become totally honest, we have to realize we are all hoping to move someone further towards their wholeness and happiness than further away from it.

    3. As a woman, I have had two men in my life who absolutely left me in a better place than when they found me... one I integrated easily and only think fondly about... the other, I longed for him for 9 years now? geez! Am I better off for having that deep of an interaction with a man in a committed, non monogamous marriage... yes and no... any man who has come into my life since him has suffered because they haven't been able to touch the deepest part of me the way he did... can I control the catch 22? I hate to think of anyone that wanted to be my man who had to brush up against that one. talking with other women over 30, we all go through this... there is always one man who took us further, joined with us deeper, met us in greater truth, wanted us to know how unbelievably undefined and beyond words magnificent we are and gave us the gift of feeling that in our body with some kind of consistency so that the experience really mattered. When you loose that... being with someone else again is always somewhat of a challenge...and we as women don't mean for it to be... no disrespect meant, no rejection meant... how do you reconcile with that one? Love them and leave them? (sigh)

    Yes... life goes on and more good times, realizations do come along... too bad that we don't strive to create only lasting long term relationships even if they are with more than one person... (would this be considered ranting?)

    4. You can't make it seem like she's not getting used... she either is (and you are as well) or she's not (and you're not either)... simple... shadow...light

    5. How many sexual encounters will one woman have by the time she's 50 if the guys in her life are all just "passing through"?

    6. It's alarmingly true that women do not know what is possible for them and neither do men, in terms of how much goodness they can share together...

    I hope this was inspiring, raw, and real for you... It certainly gave me a chance to reflect on what I leave with any man who has loved me as well... it really does take 2 to tango!

  16. I always wondered the same thing about that statement.

    I don't know about better...

    I just aim to not leave them worse, which means I don't lie about my intentions.

  17. Good post. It's one of those things that has bugged me for a while. I think the any person has to be able to look back at HIS/HER relationship/friendship with another human being and be able to say that his/her life is richer for it.

    Unfortunately, being manipulated by a lying (sometimes also a sociopath) individual into bed so he can show off the photos to his buddies on his PDA or post them on some website doesn't really enrich the other person's life.

    It just makes for good rhetoric. ;-)

    OK, Wait..... Unless you count being conned and learning from having been duped as being "Better" for it.


  18. Anonymous6:20 AM

    "I just aim to not leave them worse, which means I don't lie about my intentions."

    Considering all that has been written. This is ONE thing you have control over.

    Here are some random thoughts.

    - why is it MY responsibility to leave a woman better off than I found her

    - what an insult to women....they're not emotional retards, men usually are

    - teach her stuff? why? I'm sharing my warm body with her...that's not enough now? you're kidding me.

    - people are complex and may or may not come with known or unknown psychic wounds...this is not my business, and my wounds have never been a woman's business.

  19. I dunno man, just give her more good emotions than bad ones I guess and don't lie about you wanting to be her fucking soul mate or some shit.

    I don't think there is any point trying fooling myself into thinking that what I am trying to do is enrich women's lives or anything.

    As long as you are fun, cool and some way decent I don't see a need to worry about this really.

  20. Anonymous9:37 AM

    By being romantic.

    Creating those romantic moments which will occassionally be triggered in her mind, through out the rest of her life.

    Mystery obviously tries to do this, with things like his 'I don't know what you drink' fridge bit, and his 'travelbag story', which is probably far too overworked to actually 'work' to that extent.

    Also he was trying to do this with his loopy 'marridge' routine with Katya.

    You get the idea, create romantic moments, then part in a graceful fashion, so when those memories are triggered they are not tinged with sourness.

    Also, Sinn, do a service to your brothers, teach them to give good head please.

    Also Sinn, make them more adventerous, so they get more out of life.

    how to leave them better?
    By making her more secure, making her feel that what is attractive about her character is valued. And that what she has to give is valued.

    'Lisa taught me a very cool thing...'


  21. yes, Sinn.

    better according to whom?

    better when? a day later? a week later? a year later? ten years later? fifty years later?

    can we settle on which specific things we are going to concentrate on, knowing that this particular thing or two, x or y or z, are what we offer, amongst the options of what all is possible that may leave her better, and then rest?

    when we step back and look at the big picture of all the ways to leave her better and what better means, how big is that picture? how many options are in it that we have to choose from? if we collaborated to pool and compile them all, how many would we have access to and what new ways could we learn? which of those would we rather exemplify or try to create? how many strategies do we have for controlling how we are remembered? on what scale of time?

    how are we affecting the rest of the world through how they remember us and take that with them into their daily lives?

    what to we do when she doesn't WANT to be left better than she was found, but wants to be WORSE? what do we do when this mission of ours -- this mission to leave her better off -- is in direct conflict to her mission?

    do we call this ... parting game? separation game?

    personally, I have been completely confounded by this as I fly by the seat of my pants with it. some breakups I have had have been monumentally unpleasant at the time, later resulting in the girl involved coming back to me to thank me or re-engage because she finally got it ... because it finally clicked for her, five to ten years later.


    how do we decide what is enough?

  22. If you are talking a one night stand you aren't leaving her with sh**. Ever. There isn't a girl on the planet that was happy she was just a one night stand. Unless of course it sucked and she never wants to have sex with you again anyway. You leave someone better then you found them, when you've added to their lives in some manner. And enrichment to their lives. I think people bring us up to their level or unfortunately down. I've known men who when it ends, I'm not walking away empty handed. I'm wiser. I've got great memories. I've learned something. And I'm just grateful. Better.

  23. Anonymous11:03 AM



    "personally, I have been completely confounded by this as I fly by the seat of my pants with it. some breakups I have had have been monumentally unpleasant at the time, later resulting in the girl involved coming back to me to thank me or re-engage because she finally got it ... because it finally clicked for her, five to ten years later.


    how do we decide what is enough?"

    Indeed... How do we know?...