Friday, June 29, 2007

Are you an "Agenda guy"?

Almost every community guy I have met over the past 4 years, has fit into the category of "Agenda guy". That means that instead of kicking back, and relaxing when we run into each other at a bar or club, they pump me for free advice. It means that every time Im talking, they interrupt it with a question about THEIR game. It means that every time that I talk to a girl, they hover and try to overhear the magical incantations I use to get them attracted to me.

The truth is, if you can't vibe and chill with a guy, how in the world are you going to do it with a girl? If I can tell you have an agenda when you're talking to me, then a girl can certainly tell you have an agenda when you're talking to her. And since in a social interaction in a bar, club or the street can have only so many possible agendas, then she can tell you must want sex. And guess what? The hungry don't get fed. The more it seems like you are leaning and trying to get something from her, the more she is going to deny you. The more she is going to see you as low value. Because a guy that has women in his life, doesn't have to try so hard because he has girls in his life and access to sex. A guy who's trying this hard, probably goes home at the end of the night and humps the arm of his favorite jacket.

Agenda guys extend to other walks of life as well, think used car salesmen, But the point of this post, is to get you thinking about whether or not you are an agenda guy and if you are, Un-fuck that part of yourself and stop trying to get something for nothing. Focus on adding value and helping the other person. Become a go-giver.



  1. Hey Sinn,

    This post got me thinking, because MM teaches indirect usually up front.

    To me indirect always smacked of "I've got an agenda but I'm trying to hide it". I think the girls usually knew what you were up to, they just thought you were being more subtle.

    Then I moved to more direct game. I'll tell girls "I came over here to flirt with you" or I think you say sometimes "I'm gonna try to fuck you". Of course you qualify in there somewhere, but still, you're agenda guy who is laying the agenda on the table.

    Now if a guy pumps you for free advice, that is a one way interaction. But if I go direct and flirt, and get a girl amped up, isn't that a two way interaction? She gets the benefit of feeling great, laughing, arousal, etc.

    I guess my question (which I'm sort of answering myself as I think though this) is how should you give value in an interaction with a woman? With men I'll try to help their business, introduce them to girls, etc. But with a woman, I feel like just making her laugh and attracted is giving value, and one way of doing that is laying the agenda on the table.

    Just thinking out loud...

  2. Anonymous11:43 AM

    What's up Sinn.

    So true. As my field experience goes up, general social intelligence also goes up . . . and hence theability to gauge the "pecking order" of the group, and subsequently IMMEDIATELY tell is talking to me quid quo pro and who's genuinely interested . . .

    Nice one.

  3. Great point... the few times I've been approached from people with an agenda I could detect it right off of the approach, wether it be sales men, strippers, bums, etc. I can't stand people that only approach with an agenda (except strippers) and I try to blow them off asap.

    BTW i was at the lair talk last night and you guys rock! Thanks for comming out (didn't get a chance to thank in person).

  4. Hi,
    this post reminds me of the time (just 3 months) I spent in an ancient asian country. At the university there every twenty minutes a guy (unfortunately 99.9% of all girls have extreme asd over there resulting from strong traditions) comes up and talks to you out of nothing, you think how friendly talking to a complete stranger looking totally different(e.g. no black hair, etc.), but after 2 minutes they will all ask you the same question: "Do you have a language partner?". This is such a lame feeling knowing that you are just needed for this individual's personal advantage. In my special situation I guess I was lucky that these guys did not know how to hide this. ;-)


  5. Hi,

    your post reminds me of the time (3 months) I spent in an ancient asian country.
    At the campus there every 20 min. a guy (- unfortunately girls have a major ASD, resulting from strong traditions, approaching a guy is totally unpossible for them...they do it over a guy ;-) ) comes up and starts talking to you about anything, first you think how cool...talking to a total stranger (e.g. no black hair, etc.), but after 2min. they will all ask the same question: "Do you have a language partner?".

    This is such a lame feeling just to be needed for this individual's personal advantage.

    Objective point of view: Total contradiction to attraction.

    A big grin captures my face thinking about..every guy I met under these circumstances must have been an agenda guy.

    Please do not fear ancient asian guys from now on, they seem to be more relaxed when they have a job, this is a hard competition over there.


  6. Anonymous11:48 PM

    Anyone here read "The Irresistible Offer"? The first quality of an irresistible offer is a high ROI (that's for them, not you), ROI is based on need, what's the ROI you're offering?

    Next is a touchstone (sort of a unique phrase, read the book).

    The third is believability. The four sales questions are "what are you selling? How much? Why should I believe you? what's in it for me?"

    It seems to me people often fail on ROI (it's where a direct approach can break down, you're coming out and telling them you want something without really offering anything), and if not ROI, then believability, it's that lack of trust "what's he trying to get from me?"

    In my view, social proof is one method of creating believability. If you've just walked away from another group without taking anything, you seemingly aren't out to get anything. If you are in the presence of a bunch of other people just having a good time, you look more like your primary goal is to have a good time, than if you're going after one particular girl, hitting on her.

    Focus on giving, what a novel thought.

  7. I was going to write that agenda guys are really just guys who are motivated and want to learn from the best sources, nothing wrong with that. but after reading sinn's post again i started to think that maybe he's run into some seriously hardcore annoying agenda guys.

    I'f i was particularly good at something and people would be asking me for advice a lot, i'd not care, i'd try to help everybody out.

    but like sinn said, if a guy cant vibe with you, if he cant just relax, if he has to stalk you when you're talking to a girl then he's lacking a certain level of social intelligence.

    god know what it must be like for someone like mystery.

  8. Jules Crew1:39 AM

    Yeah, it is probably annoying always meeting guys and having them just trying to get you to show them things. Pushing frames on to you trying to get you to “perform” or like dance for them. You feel like you got some in set cameraman following you around wanting you to prove something? That would defiantly feel obnoxious as fuck, especially with doing a lot of boot camps. You know some people focus too much on the wrong things and can’t just be chill and kick around another guy.

    I got a chance you to see you talk at the open lair meeting in Chicago. I digged it.

    Don’t sweat it all too much man.


  9. Hawk aka MunichHawk3:16 AM

    That´s one thing what was so cool about meeting puzzler.
    We talked a little bit about game but actually we told each other about our lives, what we want etc.
    In short what guys do when they become friends.

  10. Anonymous2:28 PM

    Straight up. Great job at the lair talk.


  11. Anonymous7:35 AM

    I've come up with my #1 rule for learning this stuff and dealing with marketing gurus and other newbie guys as well.

    Its like this: "Individual challenges, Individual striving and Individual Results."

    That means that some gurus success means nothing in my own experience.

    As individuals, we do the work, we do the sets and eventually we reap the rewards.

    Newbies are the other extreme, they are clingy and weird. I have probably experienced much of the same things you experience but from even newer guys.

    And that makes the #1 rule valid as well.

    You cannot help others to see the truth, you can only hope that they see it for themselves.

    Therefore, I chose to go it alone and practice my game as I have done many nights before.

    I will hang with guys but if they act like little bitches, they can forget it.

    If I see guys out who are better than me, its the same as if I saw some newbie.

    I will be cordial and say hello. Then I will go about my business.

    And true friends will be there with me. Although I cannot give or take from their experience, we choose to hang out.

    Its a weird social dynamic with wings and learning this stuff. You have to be detached from the male friendship relationship on some level. Otherwise, it ends up only being about two or three guys hanging in a bar.

    And that's why going out alone works.

    Back to your point, I don't ask for help anymore but if someone offers something, I do try to listen and implement it.
    And that's not always easy. And you feel sometimes like you let the person down who shared some awesome tip with you and you...just can't quite...get'r'done.

    So that's how I feel on this subject.