Friday, June 29, 2012

3 years or 2 thousand approaches; How to know when to give up

 Recently I have had some phone calls and emails from guys who have been into pick-up for a long, long, long time without actually getting results.

One guy I spoke to had been doing pick up for close to 5 years and was still having problems getting laid. Another guy had done over 2,000 approaches and only had 2-3 lays.

Which brings me to a very important point. When it comes to getting better at pick-up there is a learning curve. For me it took 6 months of doing approaches every day for me to get my first lay BUT and this is a big Kardashian sized BUT after that I started getting laid by at least 1 new girl a month.

When you get your first success there should be a breakthrough where things start to get easier. If not after your first success fairly soon after that.

Now the guy who had been doing stuff for 5 years had never had any coaching and perhaps that was the reason he wasn't getting results as oftentimes a coach can fix some of the issues, but the bigger issue is this:

If after 5 years of practice you still aren't good at something, it might be time to admit that this just isn't for you.

Hell 5 years is too long in my opinion, I've watched other guys both online and in real life grind and put in the effort only to never get better. I hate to be big king dream squasher (Ok that's not true I love it so much it makes have to change my pants) but some of you don't have what it takes to get good at this.

That doesn't mean you cant get a little bit better, it just means that at a certain point if you're not getting better and actually getting success with women, then you need to give up the dream of ever being a player and rolling in the clubs with 10s on each arm and start to look at what's realistic for you which is probably a girlfriend of roughly equal attractiveness.

So I'm now officially laying out my guide for when to quit pick-up. It's actually quite simple.

If you have

A: Been into pick up for over a year without taking any action. If you've been reading stuff for that long you're probably never going to take action so you might as well stop torturing yourself by reading about other people's exploits.

B. If you've been doing approaches for over 2 years and haven't gotten any success. We'll define any success as less than 3 lays.

C. You've done more than 2,000 cold approaches and have less than 3 lays.

So there you have it a guide to giving up so you can move on to something else that might work for you.



  1. Kinda hard to believe that no success happens after 2k approaches. Even after 100 or so i started getting better and I was super shy. They need to take your coaching thats for sure.

    1. Anonymous2:05 AM

      Hey,that number is the time to quite.You had a result keep doing it.This is guide line for guys who does not have results or long time KJ.

      It's better for him to quit this once.Maybe his work situation,his face or body or some sort of basis is too low for doing this.

      This is not something everyone can learn.It does not guarantee any results.

      If you did those then nothing happen,time to quite.It is not you.

      They do not need any coach.All they need is just quite reading and watching about pick up or doing pick up.

      It's happiness for him.

  2. Maybe you should first aim to get one girlfriend, after that for another one and another one...??

  3. Anonymous12:53 PM

    "They need to take your coaching thats for sure..."

    hi sinn...

  4. Thats the problem. Id go as far to say that Jon youre wrong and that ANYONE can get good at this if they REALLY want to. Whats stopping them? An unhealthy body can be fixed, bad fashion can be corrected, and a misunderstanding of girls can actually be fixed by doing more approaches. You also have to consider where, when, and how they are approaching. Doing 2000 approaches all while stopping right after the opener is not approaching. This whole thing is just a classic case of being a pussy. A big one. Anyone that does anything 2000 times and does not get good at it just aint serious. You said it yourself Jon "pickup will show you how much you want to change your life". They either need to lose weight, dress proper, or just stop being a pussy. Only then can they get better at pickup.

  5. Thats the problem. Id go as far to say that Jon youre wrong and that ANYONE can get good at this if they REALLY want to. Whats stopping them? An unhealthy body can be fixed, bad fashion can be corrected, and a misunderstanding of girls can actually be fixed by doing more approaches. You also have to consider where, when, and how they are approaching. Doing 2000 approaches all while stopping right after the opener is not approaching. This whole thing is just a classic case of being a pussy. A big one. Anyone that does anything 2000 times and does not get good at it just aint serious. You said it yourself Jon "pickup will show you how much you want to change your life". They either need to lose weight, dress proper, or just stop being a pussy. Only then can they get better at pickup.

  6. Anonymous5:58 PM

    If anybody has done 2000 approaches without getting laid at least 10 times....they are a liar

  7. Anonymous12:22 AM

    I disagree with A.

    B and C speak to unsurmountable personality defects but a guy does A might just have a shitty life situation (no car, place, job/money, social circle) that he needs to and can work on before he takes the plunge into cold approach. I personally knew about the community for 3.5 years before i got into a position to start cold approaching. But now that i've started i feel happy with my progress. Though, I don't deny that my slow zero to hero story falls into the minority.

  8. Anonymous1:17 AM

    Of course everything can be fixed, but some people dont have the ability to improve themselves. This blog post seems a bit harsh, I cant quite fully agree with it, but definitely there are guys with much less talent for this and some are naturals... It's a tough world

  9. Anonymous2:50 AM

    Lol my only guess is that someone who open 2,000 sets and only
    gets laid 3 ties has asburgers or something. Game isn't hard
    as far as getting laid with normal average looking girls goes.
    Yes if you're wanting to only game "9s and 10s" then it can be
    a bit more difficult and not everyone will get there with the "hots"
    consistently, but normal girls.. come on!!! not tough unless theres seriously something wrong with you and in that case don't look to game to fix your problems

  10. Anonymous4:02 AM

    sinn loves to swallow his brothers sperm

    1. Anonymous2:09 AM

      WTF! is this true?

  11. Anonymous6:14 AM

    How do you deal with haters that don't like pick up bashing you for what your doing

    1. Ablaze6:33 AM

      Stop telling people what you're doing. You can tell them you like to try to meet a lot of girls, but stop telling them you actually read blogs, or whatever else you're doing, and start learning to mask the language. Don't talk about "approaching", talk about "walking up to a girl". Don't talk about "calibration" or your "selfish genes" or "attraction" or any other pickup jargon and learn to disguise it. Eliminate the word "pickup" from your vocab.

  12. Anonymous9:37 AM

    Unless you are Brent, Jon !

    What % of people have such bad results? Are they saying a 9 or 10/10 or NO DEAL?

    Are they refusing to repair their 'packaging' - their look - bad teeth/hairstyle/clothing? Some guys are cheap, they will not spend money to get further.

    Maybe their mentality - some trauma from their past that is haunting them ? Their name: Kirkey? A brain disorder from birth? Brent?Ross? Many people named Brent, so the name is fair use. GURU hypnosis? Marketing obsession over actual results?

  13. Anonymous1:04 AM

    I gotta disagree. It took me a long time to make major improvements, and many people I've gone out to hit on girls with had similar experiences. One dude did approaches for at least 3 years before he got over the third lay, but 2 years later he gets laid pretty consistently. I think some people have a very difficult time seeing where they're fucking up with their game. It could be an identity issue, could be a need to get over social anxiety, or maybe there are tactical things they're fucking up in set that they can't seem to see without someone telling them.

  14. Anonymous3:04 AM

    "move on to something else that might work for you"
    do you have any suggestions?

  15. Anonymous6:58 AM will help you get results :)

  16. Ablaze7:11 AM

    I respectfully disagree Sinn. I think it's up to each individual to do what they want with their time and energy. Pickup is a personal journey, like martial arts or playing an instrument. Not everyone is going to be the next Anderson Silva or Eric Clapton, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't take up a sport or hobby or whatever else just because they aren't going to get good.

    Keeping a guy's unrealistic expectations in check is a good thing. It's another thing to crush his passion completely though and tell him to give up. I think there are a ton of guys in the community that will never get quote unquote "good", but they enjoy reading the books and watching videos and enjoy the "infotainment" of the community.

    Getting good at pickup isn't about how many lays you have under your belt, or any other measurable thing... It's about maximizing each individuals potential and making him feel good about the fact that he's maximized himself. I'm more impressed by a guy who is a 5 on the "1-10 Good at Pickup Scale" that is at his peak potential than a lazy ass 7 who could be a 9 if he put in some work.

    If an overweight 45 year old decides to take up martial arts and he loses a few pounds, maximizes his potential, and is happy, what instructor is going to point to pro fighters and go, "Sorry, but that's never going to be you, buddy."

    I believe if you train a guy properly, he will be happy with the fact that he's maximized his potential, he'll be satisfied with the results he's getting, he won't have unrealistic expectations, and he won't be concerned with what he doesn't have. He won't be looking at supermodels and wondering why he doesn't have them because proper training won't let his mind drift to thoughts of lack, scarcity, and his limitations.

    I agree with a vast majority of what you say, Sinn, but I have to call you out on this one man.

    If a guy isn't getting results at the benchmarks that you listed, he should consider getting actual training at that point. If the instructor notices real physical limitations that cannot be changed, the focus should be on the guy's inner game and teaching him to be positive and focus on things he can control. Beyond that, if the guy is still struggling, then you're dealing with someone who has psychological problems and they don't need a pickup instructor, they need a psychologist.

    Maximizing one's potential is more important than getting good.

  17. Anonymous4:25 PM

    Hey Sinn could you consider making a future blog post about how to get into clubs w/out paying cover? Its annoying seeing girls go from one club to the next w/out paying yet us guys can't go from club to club as freely. Would love some ideas/techniques to work around this cover BS.

    I can accept paying for girls drinks, but just to get into the club... paying when girls don't have to on these "Ladies Nights"... SMH

  18. Anonymous4:46 PM

    Bullet Point Summary:

    Some people are retards. Life has screwed them. Xbox make it better.

  19. Anonymous8:10 PM

    There's a catch 22 to this fairly negative blog entry, if Sinn is saying that some dudes should definitely use a coach, as Sinn doesn't do bootcamps anymore, plus hasn't set up a large enough business for that, to teach others to coach under his business name. Plus some guys take longer than others, to pick things up.

    So in that case, who do you best recommend for in person, face to face coaching, if you reckon certain guys should get it, as most dudes can't afford to pay $US 3000.

    12 Months to Mastery, as good as it is, is done by videos and phone calls if one resides in the US.

  20. Anonymous10:04 PM

    2-3 lays is better than 0 lays. So they have to work harder than others. Those are results too.

  21. Anonymous11:30 PM

    Unless there is a real problem going on with you like you look bad or can't talk or something you should never give up. It is such a generalization to say that everyone should quit after 2 years. You don't know how hard he is trying or even what is exactly that he is trying.

  22. Anonymous1:25 AM

    Well thats not right according to law of attraction

  23. Anonymous6:21 AM

    Since some guys can take a lot longer than others to get their inner and outer game shit together, whilst being busy with work, school, making a life, etc, as well, whilst some others can do so a lot faster, the rather harsh negativity of this post, is a bit like some readers saying why do you and other pickup businesses of varying quality, even bother making pickup products, when many of your readers regularly steal them from the internet and don't pay for them, whereas I myself have actually bought some of your products, without stealing and am being told I'm a loser.

    But you still produce stuff, in the hope that they'll assist guys and because you have positive motivational concepts you like to communicate to guys.

  24. Anonymous3:15 PM

    Wow, a lot of guys are taking this wrong. haha. Guys! Stop being naive!

  25. Ablaze10:34 PM

    I'm a keyboard jockey so I make posts about MMA and metaphors because I don't have any field experience.

    I like the fulfillment of reading books and infotainment. Sometimes I wack off reading

    Gotta run, must read the latest RSS feed from Jlaix and Tyler or my day won't be complete.

  26. Edward6:35 AM

    What an interesting post!

    In my experience, the key to improving is really to cut down your learning curve. No matter how much one reads or even "does", you need to need feedback and change your behavior to get what you want. Same input, usually same output.

    I think it's definitely easy to go hard on others or even oneself when faced with "failure" or talk shit about someone's "game" when one has improved a lot. I certainly have. I'm happily married and sometimes find myself thinking "wow - look at those chumps trying to find a date."

    But then I think back to the countless hours I devoted to e craft - countless books and seminars with David D, Mystery, Sinn, RSD, Mystery, etc. I even did some great executive coaching with Jon. This craft - along with any worth pursuing takes a shitload of commitment, drive, and constant "deliberate practice" (see Talent is Overrated, Talent Code, or Outliers).

    Those books suggest a concept called "the 10,000 hour rule" that says you become a master by not only spending a lot of time but also spending it doing the right fundamentals, with the right feedback (aka coach), and by adjusting yourself accordingly.

    Philosophically speaking, I'm pretty agnostic to any particular strand - I just do what works. In my experience, what works includes:

    - having a commitment to the process (and not just the "event" of any particular interaction) of improving
    - surrounding yourself with the best at PU - but who are also good dudes at heart
    - sharing your experience with others - you learn fastest by teaching
    - understand that no matter how good you get, there is probably someone better, if not here then another skill that can complement your knowledge here
    - as Jon says, having fun is the ultimate attraction switch - the key to everything!
    - keeping a journal or record of your progress so you can *measure* your success
    - not letting anyone say what you can or can't do - things can literally change in a moment
    - having an attitude of gratitude - for being able to "fail" and learn and contribute to the happiness of the someone awesome in the world (who just happens to be a girl)
    - ask: what can I do to make this girls experience something she's never felt before?

    I'm extremely grateful for this community and hope some of you can use some of what I've written to ultimately get what you want - whether its a simple kiss from someone you love and loves you to the most bad-ass lifestyle available ... It's all possible

    Good luck!

  27. Anonymous5:31 AM

    While I have faired much better than 2000 approaches for 3 girls, I would also say that it wasn't a path of roses. I did 300 approaches before I got my first lay. Since then I have done 1200 more and scored with about 30, however, I had some deep inner game issues that I am just now overcoming.
    Moreover, I don't think someone should give up...ever. The guys that are struggling real bad are probably doing something wrong. Those guys should make pick up their life. In other words, learn humor by reading stand-up books and going to workshops. Also, get some of those alpha male movies and practice walking and talking like they do. There are so many things one can do to get better. Don't forget to practice day game. Some of my lays come from day game. Finally, try online game. Half of my lays have come from online.

  28. Anonymous8:56 AM

    think of it like getting a good body (im a personal trainer, thats why im using this example). I've met guys that have tried getting a good body for 5+ years, they failed. Did I tell them to quit? no. They were doing it wrong. Most of them were undereating or overtraining or just doing dumb crap they heard or read somewhere. Just because someone is failing with women does not mean they aren't destined for it, their just going about it wrong. You as a coach should know this most.

  29. Anonymous5:44 PM

    i would say if you put all that effort and havent gotten laid you either need proffessional counselling, or what you consider an approach is more like a ''hey, o.k. bye''

  30. Anonymous3:52 AM

    This post is terrible.

    There is nothing magical about the numbers “3 lays”, “2,000 approaches”, “5 years” or whatever. These are all arbitrary numbers. What happens if someone gets 2 lays over 2,000 approaches? Does that mean they should give up? What happens if a guy had no lays over 2,000 approaches but got access to coaching afterwards and by 2,500 approaches, they were able to get laid consistently? It would’ve been stupid for them to give up, right? These numbers are things you pulled out of thin air and mean nothing.

    Learning game is like learning a foreign language. People learn things at different rates. Some people have more of a talent for it, are determined and pick it up quickly. Other people take a while. Some people will ultimately have the mastery of a natural. Other people may only become decent. Just because success for you comes at a slower rate does not mean you should give up.

    Lastly, quality matters more than quantity. Getting better at game basically comes down to three factors a) that person’s determination, b) the quality of the material at that person’s disposal and c) and the application of that material.

    If a person has done 2,000 approaches and still can’t get laid, they need to fix the application of that material, i.e. get some coaching, or re-evaluate the material they are using. If they are using the material of some terrible dating coach then it should not be surprising that they can’t get laid.

    If you want to get good at something you get trying even if it takes 10,000 approaches or 10 years. Most people that visit this site can’t get a date or a girlfriend, hence they have no choice but to keep trying.

    This post basically reinforces a loser mentality and is the worst post I have seen on this site so far.

  31. Everybody can get his inner game together and if being a pick up artist is not working, try the approach of naturals

    I think anybody can learn this... There's probably something wrong with their learning method...