Thursday, September 04, 2008

My official take on rating girls

Ok, so I got a comment from a reader named a concerned woman or something like that about how rating women was judging them.

I'm pretty sure I've written about this publicly before, I just think it was on a forum somewhere.So I wanted to clarify my take on this retarded process.

First I don't rate girls in my personal or professional life. There are many reasons for this, the biggest being that supposedly rating girls allows you to quantify how they are going to respond to you, yet you NEVER know how a girl is going to react to being approached. I've met incredibly beautiful women who were sweet and open to being approached, and I've met hideous women who were not. There's just no way to tell, so there's no point in rating. The second problem I have with rating women is that it's horribly demeaning to the women who are being rated as they are being reduced strictly to a number. And this comes from a guy who details his sexual exploits in detail on the internet. The last problem with rating girls comes from the fact that EVERYONE has different taste. Do you think a 6ft tall thin, flat chested runway model is hot? I wouldn't even approach that girl. I'd be far more interested in the 5'3 stripper looking girl with tats and piercings. Now some girls are universally attractive, but they are much more the exception than the rule. So people like Mystery, and Hawaii waste their time arguing about whether a girl was a 9 or a 9.25. 4 years later I still have no fucking idea how you award a quarter of a point of hotness..

I really do hate the process of rating girls as anyone on my bootcamp can attest when I stare blankly at students when they ask me to rate a girl beyond a " she's hot" or "she's ok." I'd go so far as to say it's even borderline misogyny. So I highly recommend that everyone gets rid of this arcane and insulting process to help us foster healthy win/win relationships with women, whether it's just for a night or a lifetime.



  1. THANKS FOR POSTING THIS! I hate the stupid HB Scale. To me it's more of a GREEN-YELLOW-RED Thing. Kind of like you said she's attractive, she's okay, or there is no way I'd approach her.

    This is a good topic to stand on top of a soapbox for.

  2. I rate this blog post a 9.25 and I only approach to comment on blog posts that are 9 and above. I have my standards which I will not compromise. All joking aside, thanks for posting about Charles C Lynch.

    Peace, Love, and Herb,

    Girls rate guys all the might not always be a # thing but we do rate/judge/demean guys at our discretion.

  3. I agree with both you and jsmooth's comment. Either she's hot, she's ok, or im not even interested in her. However, I think there is some validity in the rating scale.

    I thought it was supposed to be a rating on relative percieved social value in the venue, not how attractive she is? A 6 who rents out the place because its her birthday and has all her friends there becomes a 10 for the night, and you must calibrate your game for that. Any other night of the week you treat that same 6 in a random bar like shes a 10 and she'll call you an asshole.

    Even if it does usually work out to the attractiveness of the girl, I always thought it was supposed to be a social value rating not an attractiveness rating.

  4. Anonymous11:52 AM

    I like this post as well. Especialy about not know how girls will react. I personaly find Hotter girls more warm.

    Also rateing women is bad for your inner game, if you have a crush on a girl but only think she is a six. You are fucking with your head and worrying about what other people think.

    The only thing I can't understand about not rateing women, is there is a difference how other people will react to them even if you act the same to her and she is warm to you. Other people: bouncer's Amogs club promoters and even other girls rate women and act in predictable ways if she's a supermodel, Hot, or just O.k. Doesn't that change things.

    Sorry if I am missing the point here please put me write if I am wrong that is just my experiance. I am no expert.


  5. Anonymous12:19 PM

    Plenty of guys in and out of the community rates girls that aren't thin or skinny as fat. Yet go gaming with some black guys and she's thick or healthy. It's all subjective. We all think white Europeans or Americans should dictate what is attractive to us and it's a flawed system. Yes there is universal attraction ie Miss America but for the most part it depends on the person.

  6. Word.

    I rate on a binary system. 1 or 0. Would I or wouldn't I. I would? Then I qualify her and see if she's actually cool.

    The only thing more absurd at this point than saying "Oh yeah I was sarging this HB8.5" is still using the term "HB" to refer to a girl. More pua companies need to teach their students how to be normal non-weirdos.

  7. Anonymous3:12 PM


    If you like the girl and she likes you, who gives a FUCK. It's about you and her. Seriously.

    One thing you will learn very quickly in this community is that it really doesn't matter what other people think about you. So if you care if you are seen with a "6" or "7" in the eyes of others, who cares.

  8. a girl who cares5:25 PM


    Thank you so much for this post. I am very happy to hear that there is a PUA who doesn't believe in rating girls.

    I ended up in a PUA's blog a while back. I've seen him do a lot of rating, and I was so glad he didn't "rate" me. We had a really magical time together, and it would have totally demeaned the experience if I had felt he was judging me in that way.

    My main point though is that judgment always boomerangs on the judger. It may feel good in the moment to elevate yourself over someone else or vice versa but it's a spiritual truth that we are all equals and judgment always comes back, one way or another. It also keeps people from connecting as deeply with each other, it creates separation.

    There is another way, which is just to meet each person who comes across your path with total openness. They are crossing your path for a reason. I try to look for the beauty in everyone. I had incredible experiences lately connecting with a "bum" on the street corner and a bunch of people who seemed to be totally outside of my "type" or my "social niche."

    Whatever, the world just needs more love. The more I question every judgment that comes into my head, the easier it is to connect freely with anyone and everyone. Thanks so much for your post :-)

  9. I'm going to take this conversation in a different direction: what is inherently wrong, or even unusual, about judging whether someone is attractive to you or not? I always hear women say things along the lines of, "You shouldn't rate women because it is judging them!" But what is so wrong if the only thing a guy is doing is making a judgment on whether he thinks the girl is attractive or not?

    It would be bad if the guy was also attaching stereotypes and prejudices to the girl based on what she looks like, but in itself what is so bad about making a split-second judgment on whether the girl is attractive to you or not?

    My initial inclination is that most women don't want to hear what they often perceive as their strongest value in social environments (their looks) boiled down to something so harsh and unforgiving as a comment like, "She's a 6", "She's doable, but I wouldn't date her", or "She's average".

    I'll also be so brash as to say that these same women will be hypocritical and judge a guy's initial appearance from his hairstyle to what he is wearing (how many times has it been said that something as arbitrary as what shoes you are wearing is being noticed and prejudged by women?).

    Just something I was thinking about...

  10. a girl who cares8:17 AM

    I guess I would ask you, Andy, how does it *feel* to you when someone else judges you? And I would also ask, how does it *feel* to you when you judge someone else? Isn't there a nagging sensation of hmmm that just doesn't feel quite right? Sure, everybody else may seem to be doing it, but that's not the barometer that I'm talking about ... what does your heart say?

  11. I’ve gone back and forth on whether or not I thought it was a good idea to rate women. I used to think the only real rating system necessary was “I would fuck this girl” or “I wouldn’t fuck this girl.” However, I now think that is an extremely narrow-minded and short-sighted way of thinking…and I’ve learned this the hard way. I think the better way to assess a woman’s value – or anyone’s value, for that matter – is to ask “does this person add value my life?”

    There is a fairly subtle (or maybe not so subtle) change in mindset outlined above. The prior rating system, assessing “value” on whether or not I would fuck someone leaves out a lot of important variables, such as personality, social circle, lifestyle, attitude towards/aptitude for sex, etc.

    I’ll be the first to admit that a woman has to be attractive in order for me to be interested in her. There’s too much competition out there among women for high value men for anything else to be the case.

    With that said, in all honesty, a “7” who is phenomenal in bed (puts her back into it), cooks me dinner, cleans my apartment, has cool friends, and is a lot of fun to be around adds much more value to my life at this point than a “9” who is terrible in bed, does not have an attractive lifestyle, does not have cool friends, and does not have a healthy attitude towards sex, etc. It’s funny, but a year ago, I probably wouldn’t have agreed with this statement.

    I really think that illustrates that you can’t truly appreciate this mindset unless you’ve had sex with a wide range of girls, and have had at least a few relationships. I think most of us started off with the classic 1-10 scale when we first got into the community. I view it as more of a base from which to start, and we make tweaks to our rating system and mindset as we gain more experience with people in general, with life.

  12. Anonymous5:37 PM

    For anyone who thinks sex can get them what they really want: "Yet would I offer you my body, you whom I love, knowing its littleness? Or would I teach that bodies cannot keep us apart? Mine was of no greater value than yours; no better means for communication of salvation, but not its Source. No one can die for anyone, and death does not atone for sin. But you can live to show it is not real. The body does appear to be the symbol of sin while you believe that it can get you what you want. While you believe that it can give you pleasure, you will also believe that it can bring you pain. To think you could be satisfied and happy with so little is to hurt yourself, and to limit the happiness that you would have calls upon pain to fill your meager store and make your life complete. This is completion as the ego sees it. For guilt creeps in where happiness has been removed, and substitutes for it. Communion is another kind of completion, which goes beyond guilt, because it goes beyond the body."

  13. Anonymous12:40 AM

    I agree, I don't think it's a big of a deal that u make it...but ya I stopped rating a while ago. It's useless adn why be busy rating go talk to the girl muahhahahaha.
    -JBunny reppin it up.

  14. This is really so subjective and contextual that it might as well be for one's own benefit to rate them. It's the mindset behind the rating that is the key. Whether you are trying to look good for others, rate someone else (men as well) on their personality, rate them on their looks, etc.. But the only way to rate them effectively is for everyone to be on the same mindset which in itself is not possible.

    The conclusion and how I rate girls is thru Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Depending on where the guy is he's going to get (date) girls on that level or lower. The object of game is to figure out how to attract and seduce on each level of the hierarchy.

    So, If I'm improving myself then the scale is also changing for rating women. Attractive, has a personality, positive, not just sex. This is the simplified version.

  15. Rating girls...hahahaha.

    Guys, I worked with girls...they are twice as bad as us. If I played you some of the conversations, your mouths would drop. They can be really fckking nasty.

    Use a subjectifier, "I find"

    "I find her really ugly"
    "I find her really hot"

    There. Done.

    Next. There's a personality, and an appearance.

    "I find her appearance incredible"
    "I find her personality boring"

    Here are some adjectives,

    Hot, cute, sexy, attractive, ok, meh, gross,Wart-hogish"

    For personality....

    Bitch, stupid, boring, charming, funny, quick witted.

    Now mix it up.

    "I find her personality
    Bitchy, stupid, boring, charming, funny, quick witted. and it turns me on, ( or off )"

    "I find her appearance Hot, cute, sexy, attractive, ok, meh, gross,

    There. You've just escaped the rating scale while being somewhat specific.

  16. a girl who cares9:27 AM

    So I have a provocative and sincere question for all of you: would you let go of sex if you knew that doing so was one of the keys to eternal life and youth? I don't mean just giving it up as a physical act but giving it up as a concept and all the concepts that go with it ...

  17. Anonymous8:10 PM


    It's a horribly low value thing to do too, and it's even demeaning to yourself, because if you like the look of a girl you'd just go and talk to her. Really, if you're trying to apply a scoring system of 1-10 you're probably only interested in scoring with the girl to impress someone, which is lame

  18. Anonymous2:04 PM

    a girl who cares:

    what are you talking about with this eternal life and youth nonsense? You think giving up sex will make you life forever? Ha.

    Let me know how that turns out for ya..

  19. Anonymous8:13 PM

    There are two kinds of girls. Girls you'd date/hook up with, and girls you won't. This UG/HB rating business is complex nerd logical crap. Either you're attracted and excited by the girl, or you're turned off. No need to make it complicated,

  20. A Girl Who Cares:

    I'll go ahead and address both of your points:

    1) "I guess I would ask you, Andy, how does it *feel* to you when someone else judges you? And I would also ask, how does it *feel* to you when you judge someone else?"

    I judge people all the time. I judge whether or not I'm attracted to them (this is mostly on a biological and instinctual level, but I guess you could consider it a snap judgment). I judge whether someone is a person I probably want to hang out with or avoid based on their personality, shared interests, and motives. It's inherently impossible to like or dislike someone without judging them against your preconceived standards. But don't confuse this type of judging with being judgmental based on stereotyping. I have no problem judging someone on their merits. I don't do it in a malicious way by going around telling fat girls that they are too fat for me and don't match my standards. That's just being mean, and if I did that, I wouldn't feel good about myself at all.

    Discomfort with being judged stems from insecurity and not wanting your faults acknowledged. I don't mind it at all when people judge me on my merits (chances are they either judge me either positively, negatively based on something that doesn't match their standards but doesn't bother me, or negatively based on something that I am already aware of and trying to improve on). Stereotyping me however, is something that I don't like at all. As far a judging women based on their looks: A woman is either attractive to me or she isn't. I don't "rate" them with something as arbitrary as numbers, but if a friend asks me about a certain girl, I will reply with my judgment on her which is usually just simple adjectives, facts, and maybe a comparison (Ex: She was about 5'3, brunette with nose ring, skinny, but athletic. She looked kinda like [X woman whom we both know] but with darker hair.

    2) "So I have a provocative and sincere question for all of you: would you let go of sex if you knew that doing so was one of the keys to eternal life and youth? I don't mean just giving it up as a physical act but giving it up as a concept and all the concepts that go with it."

    Eternal life and youth is an intriguing concept because I'd be able to grow with the human race and see all the great changes throughout history. I occasionally wonder what technological changes I will be alive for, and which ones will come after I'm dead and gone. However, to me, sex is one of the most wonderful things about the human condition. The connection and bond you can establish with a person through having sex is so unique. There are few feelings better than laying in the sweaty afterglow of endorphins with someone you have connected to like that after having sex for the first time. It can also be the physical manifestation of your deepest, undying love for someone. Living an eternity without experiencing those feelings would be an injustice to my existence.

  21. a girl who cares7:42 AM


    Thanks for responding. I share your desire for that euphoric space where you feel so connected to someone and so alive. I just think it's kinda limiting to think that feeling comes from sex. It can be experienced with anyone, anywhere, anytime under the right conditions. For me, one of those conditions has been removing my judgments. When my thinking mind is blank, all this space opens up inside me, and euphoria and connection are what fill that space. That's what "presence" means to me.

    Have you read A New Earth and the Power of Now?

    I'm starting to blog about this:

  22. Anonymous3:37 AM

    We need to separate the emotional issue with the analytical one.

    To me rating is a putting a number to the 'current' value I am giving to the girl.

    So its just an analytical tool to help you game. Nothing more to it.

    When it becomes a tool used by the ego then it becomes an issue.

    When you get a puppy from the store you pay some money for it. Later it becomes part of

    your life and it becomes priceless. We don't hear people having debates about why

    puppies shouldn't have a number($) assigned to them.

    So yeah, when you are dealing with a system (of girls), rating helps us understand the system better

    just as the monetary value of any product in a system puts in perspective of the other products.

    Now the monetary value of a product has little relevance to the emotional value it has on somebody.

    People assign values to each other all the time. Putting a number to it shouldn't be a big deal. Talking about it should be.

  23. a girl who cares8:08 AM


    There's no question we all use mental shortcuts to live our lives. But let's not be deceived about what we are doing. Rating someone by "instinct" or instantly just means our judgments are still unconscious. Talking about it at least shines the light of awareness on what we are doing, which makes change possible.

    Make no mistake about it though, any "rating" or judging of someone else's value is the ego in full effect. Doesn't matter if you're using it as a shortcut, an analytical tool, or whatever. Yes, love can also enter in, but only into the space where judgment is absent.

    Eckhart Tolle's A New Earth really is a fun read and brings a lot of light to this subject.

  24. PUA Training Blog7:37 AM

    I totally agree with this post. I'm so glad someone in the PUA community is thinking straight. It's so stupid rating women, as everyone has totally different tastes!

    One guy's HB 10 is anothers HB 6. It's about being more content with your life, not competing with everyone else, because you'll never win!

    Nice work